The Biz Dojo

S3E17 - Making adjustments in wellness w/Dr. Karen Quinn

November 30, 2021 Dr. Karen Quinn Season 3 Episode 17
The Biz Dojo
S3E17 - Making adjustments in wellness w/Dr. Karen Quinn
Show Notes Transcript

This week in The Biz Dojo, we chat with Dr. Karen Quinn (IG:@drkarenquinn) - chiropractor, yoga instructor, passionate health advocate and so much more. 

We'll discuss how Dr. Quinn found her path into chiropractic care, and some of the roadblocks or hesitations people can face in deciding to seek care in the first place. JP and Seth share some of their (extensive) history with chiropractors, how it's changed their lives, and how the perception of wellness is shifting over time.

So get cracking! (or don't, we talk about that too!) and grab your cup of  Biz Dojo Coffee (Masters Medium - OR - Dojo Dark) as we talk about some of the finer points of physical wellness, self care, and how everything is connected. 

You can also visit us at the links below to join the discussion:
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JP Gaston:

So I've been going to the chiropractor for 28 years.

Seth Anderson:

In the episode, I kind of made fun of you for that, then you brought up that you had scoliosis and now I kind of feel bad.

JP Gaston:

And you should ya know, when I when I was younger, I was having lots of lots of back pain and problems. I played a ton of sports. So it was always Oh, well clearly he plays this many sports but it's 12 years old, like you shouldn't be old manning it on your way home just like holding on to the railing on your way up to steps into the house and all that stuff. So I eventually went to the chiropractor and I went to a chiropractor who was a professional Windsor champion champion Windsor. Yeah, yeah champion Windsor for kind of his former life. But then he settled in and Dr. naff, I don't think he's still practicing. But that was back in Ontario. So he was he was really, really good. I think he explained everything. But I started when I was when I was 12 years old. I started going to the chiropractor. You know,

Seth Anderson:

it's interesting, because like, Linden has been talking about how his back hurts. And I'm like, You're 10 years old, your back doesn't hurt. Like that's like where my head goes to. But now I'm wondering if maybe just based on your

JP Gaston:

background, maybe his back hurts. Yeah, I Well, I for me, I actually had a little bit of a gait problem as well, like with my step, my left foot turned in a little bit. And that was part of how we discovered it was combination of you know, I was always sore. And then my parents noticed that my foot was kind of turning in a little bit on the one side, and then I went the very first thing that I mean, we sat down, we had a good consultation, he watched me walk, did all the assessment, we put together a plan. And a week later, I went back and he did an adjustment and like for the first time probably since since I was way back 10 years old. Two years earlier, but for the first time in a while, like my it felt better to walk. And I just I remember that feeling after that first session. And then I actually had to go quite often, just because of the scoliosis I had to go. I think I started out with once a week for a couple of months just to make sure that I was on track. And then it kind of weaned off of that once a week to once every couple weeks, once a month, once every couple of months. And yeah, now you know, chiropractic care is a regular part of my life. But I know that a lot of people don't do it, don't understand it. Some resist it. And for me, it's like it's been a complete life changer.

Seth Anderson:

Yeah, I think it's it's an interesting space. I had a very different experience in you where I went to a chiropractor once in my life, somewhere in my mid 20s. I was Jackass and around, pulled my back out and went in and they did the whole deal like a pretzel thing and my back snap snap. Yeah, see you later, I felt better. I never had a reason to go back. But then when I started my personal wellness journey, one of the first things that I did and it was because my lower back was constantly sore was go to a chiropractor. And you know, it was very manual experience it it was fine. But it was one of I would say four or five different tools that I use as I started on my journey of losing 100 pounds your body. It takes some adjusting a little bit. So you know I was doing Cairo massage physio, yoga meditation, I would say those were like five and then working out. So if there was like six different things in there, but I think and that brings us to our guest this week, which is Dr. Karen Quinn. I got on to her her practice through Instagram. Actually, I can't remember. We had someone on I think it might have been the episode The preserved episode with Vanessa way back in season two which you know what I was thinking about yesterday is that season two was actually jam was this year was this year JP like, yeah, like Yeah, it feels like crazy A lifetime ago. It does anyway, got connecting with her and went in and and you know, TierPoint did the assessment and consultation and I came to find out the chiropractic work was not at all what I thought it was.

JP Gaston:

Yeah, and I That's kind of the story for people who eventually go and like to me, and maybe this is because I've been involved with chiropractic care for a long time. It's, it's a lot like mechanic care for your vehicle like you. If you wait until you are, you know, at check engine light comes on, or you wait until you have a sore back to go like, Sure, you can do some things to fix it, it's actually more costly to both your wallet and to your vehicle. Overall, in in this case, the vehicle being your buddy like that, it takes its toll. So making it a regular part of holistic care and maintaining your body like actually going there for maintenance, rather than going there to fix a problem makes a world of difference.

Seth Anderson:

One, I think we get into it a little bit in the episode. And I think this actually shows up in all parts of your life is how do you measure something that never happens? You know, proactive, whether it's chiropractic or physiotherapy or whatever, like getting ahead of an injury, getting ahead of an illness making, you know, giving your body the tools that it needs, so that it doesn't have to overcome that. It's hard sometimes to make that connection. Because, you know, often we're just symptom treating, and we're just trying to feel better instead of trying to set ourselves up to feel good in the future, and skip all that stuff. But that can be hard, that can be a hard thing to actually put into practice.

JP Gaston:

Yeah, like if I went away to confirm that in five years, you know, you'd be you'd be up 75 pounds, and you would be really sore all the time. And it'd be hard for you to you know, walk up a flight of stairs or get out of bed. Like, if you could present that to someone in that way. They would be much more likely to start doing the things that they need to do to avoid that, but not knowing that that's actually an outcome or not experiencing that. It's like it's hard to

Seth Anderson:

Yeah, well, I mean, when I think about my wellness journey now, like it's easy to talk about, we'll just say the last three years. Yeah, I lost 100 pounds, like I can measure that I can I can show you pictures, like it's a real thing that happened. But like all the work that I do now the habits I've built, then day out, I know you're similar, like you can't show a picture of the future and be like, I didn't this didn't happen because I did this now. Yeah, but you got to do this work. So it's it's just, it's interesting. And I think it it shows up in business. It shows up in personal life, like the work we put in now sets you up for future success. But it is hard to measure things that don't happen.

JP Gaston:

We're coming up on the end of the season for a podcast as well, which Holy smokes

Seth Anderson:

50 5050 episodes like man

JP Gaston:

50 episodes, it feels like 1000 guests and some great conversations and far too many quotes for me to go through and and snag them all. And there's even more in this episode, but I think a lot of people are gonna be coming up on resolutions. We talked about resolutions in this episode, so I won't give that away. But a lot of people are going to be making a lot of decisions. And we've hoped that this podcast would provide people with some insight so that they can make better decisions about their own growth and wellness. So we're gonna continue to do that. That's one of our, our resolutions. Continue to do that too. In 2022.

Seth Anderson:

All right, well, without further ado, let's get into it with Dr. Karen Quinn. So this weekend, Dojo we are joined by Dr. Karen Quinn, and welcome welcome to the dojo. Karen. Thank you. I'm happy to be here. Yeah, no, I was. I've been thinking about doing this episode for a while now. So earlier this year, I came and visited you at your chiropractic office in what would you call that part of town?

Dr. Karen Quinn:

Is that Ramsey? Ramsey? It's Ramsey Yeah. Collected Ramsey love it, like best view in the city.

Seth Anderson:

I think 100% 100% Like, do you ever just stand there and like, look out the window and be like, Man, I'm lucky to get to have this view every day.

Dr. Karen Quinn:

I never lose gratitude for that view. Honestly, it's so nice even just to have daylight. I've worked in offices where my office was in the back with no windows and in the middle of winter, you come in when it's dark, at least when it's dark, and everyone should have daylight. You need it.

Seth Anderson:

It's a big thing given you know, I've got my office and slash studio setup down here. And like some weeks I just want to work upstairs at the kitchen table just to get that natural light.

Dr. Karen Quinn:

Yeah, you need it.

Seth Anderson:

So just maybe tell us a little bit about yourself in your journey. Like how was it? Did you grow up? You know, young Karen, like I want to grow up and be a chiropractor or like, what led you there?

Dr. Karen Quinn:

Yeah. I mean, it wasn't too far off, I guess. But when I was young, like nine years old, my grandpa had a massive stroke. And that was the first major medical event that I had ever, you know, encountered with a loved one. When I was young, and I remember at that moment thinking I wanted to go into medicine, and I loved academics, I was good at school. I love school. So I moving on from, you know, grade school into university into something was never in question. It was always just what I was going to do. And then, aside from that, I grew up with chronic urine infections and was on antibiotics, my whole life and come high school, I started thinking about it, and just, I just didn't feel like it was making me any healthier because I kept meeting them and I kept needing to, I kept getting sick. And so my philosophy around health kind of shifted or was clarified one or the other, I'm not sure. But I still didn't know what what kind of fit that and so I, I no longer wanted to go into medicine, but I didn't know what I wanted to do. So I moved into I went into university in kinesiology and majored in exercise health physiology, because I thought, well, if this isn't become a career path for me, then it's valuable information for my own life. And my own health because I valued health. And, and it wasn't until my second year university, I overheard someone speaking about going to chiropractic school. And I remember thinking, why would you do? What does that have to do with anything? Literally, that those are my thoughts. And because I didn't know anything about chiropractic, my dad had been to a chiropractor, his back was, he was in construction. So you know, manual labor, his back was bad. And when it when it went out it It was devastating to him for many reasons, you know, financially, physically. And so he had seen a chiropractor, but he never really spoke highly of them. And he just felt like he was just, you know, not important in that office. But it's what he used to get better. So, out of curiosity, because I was kind of judging the choice of this girl, I looked up Chiropractic in my lunch break, and realize it had, it was fitting, every single thing I was looking for, I had already I already knew I loved anatomy and loved physiology, I already knew that I wanted to help people. And you know, chiropractic, very much fit that it was very much about being well, in the first place. And, you know, obviously, there is that element of, you know, helping people in crisis, once there's a problem, but it also was about promoting health and, and preventing that from, you know, being you know, someone being in crisis in the first place. So I like that element of it. And then I started working in a chiropractic office as an assistant and I started seeing a chiropractor, that might be relevant. And my mind just became more solid and, and then that, that's the direction I took.

Seth Anderson:

So interesting to me, like, how often in life, we end up down a path where the initial like feeling or the initial thought, like you mentioned, there was like judgment, like, Why the hell would I go do that? And then, like, you find some openness and your mind or your heart or whatever, and you kind of get curious about it. And it ends up being like your whole life journey. Like that's totally, and I think,

Dr. Karen Quinn:

yeah, when it's, it's interesting to be sorry, it's interesting to you, because I faced a lot of resistance with my choice, which was, which was also really quite surprising to me. I worked in restaurants and I'd regulars. And they'd be asking, you know, what's your plan after university? And I would probably say, I'm going to go back to college and the number of people that would roll their eyes or, you know, tell me it was a waste of time, and why would I ever, you know, waste my money on school for cut? You know, it was, it was shocking, but it also didn't, it didn't affect me, like, I effected me in terms of noticing it, but it didn't make me doubt my choice. And so that also was reinforcement that okay, no, this is, this is my decision, not somebody else's. And it was interesting, because I remember one night serving, you know, it was a busy night, and I came across this, this guy who was helping and, and he asked me the same and I didn't know him, he wasn't a regular. And I answered, and I kind of grew to expect resistance in telling people what my path was going to be. And he said, You know what, that's, that's amazing. And I said, you know, thanks. I think so. And, and he said, you know, medical doctors know better than anyone how the sick body works and chiropractors know better than anyone how the Healthy Body Works. And I thought the distinction was so was so interesting, and it was the most simple way that it had ever been phrased to me. And it resonated because they're just different goggles. You know, it's not one one is better. One is, you know, it's one or the other, you know, medical system is important and, but it just wasn't the path I wanted to take for my career. But I the health aspect of it was was was What drew me to it, and I asked him what he did, because all the other people that seem to be resisting me, you know, had probably never taken anatomy, or you know, accountants and finance people. And I'm like, You're not even in this field. But he was a neurologist, and I, I, so he had the education. And I wish to this day that I had taken his card and followed up with him. Because he, yeah, he, he just understood that distinction, which I appreciated.

JP Gaston:

Do you find that that exists in the medical industry, too? Like, did you do you find that when you started, there was some resistance from doctors? There still is? Still is? Yeah, there's still is

Dr. Karen Quinn:

and that? That's okay. I mean, there's resistance in the chiropractic community to, you know, medicine to in some ways, right. So like, I feel like I tried to stay somewhat in the middle and informed and really, for me, my focus is what's best for this patient. And sometimes it is a medical intervention, and, but I try to educate people just to empower them on on just their choices, and that a lot of people don't realize what chiropractic is, and they don't realize that they don't have to be destined to be on drugs or in pain, right. And so, but yeah, I think there's always going to be kind of resistance in every domain, whether no matter what profession you're in, I think it's, it's also based out of, you know, misinformation or ignorance. And so I mean, even I have people sometimes come to me, who had a, you know, have seen another chiropractor, and there, they don't have the good things to say, and or, you know, another professional and I always just assumed there, there was just a lack of communication, and you know, for how the patient needed to hear things. Because I think everyone has good intent, I hope, and everyone has knowledge in their own domain. And, you know, not everything is for everybody.

JP Gaston:

So, have you seen a shift at all in that space? Like, obviously, wellness is becoming more and more important, there are no podcasts where two random guys in Calgary interview? refractory, it's about, well, this. But no, I like the the wellness conversation is becoming more and more just a part of everyday life now. Or at least that's, that's certainly been my experience. So have you seen any sort of shift in that? Or is is the availability of misinformation because of Google? superseding that,

Dr. Karen Quinn:

yeah, I think I think there is a shift, I think it starts I think it comes down to people being open to ideas that are foreign to them. You know, I was raised in a medical model. So I understand kind of the, the approach and the paradigm of medicine. And, you know, I looked into that to pursue it. And so I understand the, you know, the thought process as much as I can without, you know, being in it. But not everyone has really looked through the goggles of, you know, that we're born to be healthy, and that we heal from the inside out. And that nature has so much power to support you. And it's really about finding, you know, what's resisting the, the natural process of healing? And how do we remove that? So? Yeah, I think it is shifting. And I think it'll continue to shift as long as people are open to dialogue and conversation and open their hearts to, you know, different approaches and, and remind ourselves as practitioners that this isn't about us, you know, it's about the person in front of you. It's about helping patients and, and leading them down the path that is going to help them but also that they feel heard and cared for, along the way,

Seth Anderson:

the level that I'm still stuck, like, seven minutes ago, in our conversation, though, thinking about the story you were telling when you were serving and the guy who like lifted you up. Man, those like, How long ago was that? Like 20 years ago? Something like that?

Dr. Karen Quinn:

More than 20 years, I would have been 21. and such. Yeah. Oh, yeah. So I guess 20 or 20

Seth Anderson:

years ago, 20 years ago, and you still remember that? Like you still remember that? Like?

Dr. Karen Quinn:

The exact words?

Seth Anderson:

Yeah, like a random conversation. You're, you know, when you're serving, I presume you would have had hundreds of those conversations in a week. But you remember that one. And it's just so interesting to me that those random moments seemingly random moments occur and someone you may never see them again, you may never talk to them again. But they help you see something in yourself that's like, Ah, I got this or I'm on to this. And yeah, I don't know those. Those moments are so powerful, and I think we just kind of breezed by them. So I don't know, I just I thought that was really cool. It'd be really cool to reconnect with that guy and show him or I

Dr. Karen Quinn:

know, I know. I find Though the moments in life in general that are like the most impactful and enough I get nostalgic for are those moments that at the time just seem like, you know, they're the every day just doesn't seem too impactful kind of moments. And those are the moments that kind of can really shift our, our direction without us even realizing

Seth Anderson:

totally, there's a really good leadership video or TED talk, I guess, what's that guy's name? JP the volley?

JP Gaston:

There's a really good Ted.

Seth Anderson:

Ted. I know that drew Dudley? I don't know if you've seen that one.

Dr. Karen Quinn:

No, I haven't. I'm writing it down right now.

Seth Anderson:

Yeah. And it's it's called lollipop moments. And it's in this vein about one of the quotes that's coming to my head right now is like we, you know, go out of our way to celebrate birthdays, we're all you have to do basically is not die for a year, and like we celebrate it, but like people who like impact our lives and make like the shifts or help us see these insights, and we just we never thank them. We never, we never recognize them. We never talk about it. And I think that's such an interesting point, how we kind of, not this, necessarily this example, but like just in general how often these moments happen, like in the ether, and we just kind of move

Dr. Karen Quinn:

on. And it makes you think to like how often you might have been what that person you know, that had that impact that you don't realize the power you have in other people's lives and just those everyday kindness or everyday kind of validating comments, or whatever it is, right?

Seth Anderson:

Yeah, that guy, I'm sure was just like, I just want to eat my meal. But hey, like, I think this is a good idea. And you're like, that it stuck.

Dr. Karen Quinn:

Yeah, yeah, it was interesting. And it didn't like, change my like I was already I already knew what I wanted to do. But it definitely just kind of, I think, reminded me that I wasn't alone, that it wasn't this lone wolf, like this crazy person pursuing something that was just this, you know, dream of mine. So yeah, it was nice.

Seth Anderson:

And sometimes that all takes that's all it takes, right. Just a little little reminder. I guess reverting back into the the wellness conversation a little bit. I know, when I had reached out to you, I had a lot of perceptions, I guess on what I thought, chiropractic, chiropractor three, instead of what

Dr. Karen Quinn:

chiropractic, you're right, the first time

Seth Anderson:

on what it was. And I mean, what I thought it was you lay on the table and someone folds you around like a pretzel and then you know, you kind of keep coming back every two weeks and pay 50 bucks. And it's just like this thing. And, you know, I got a certain amount of benefit from doing that approach previously. But like the issue I was having, I didn't think was connected to the work you did at all, which was my calves were just like, I couldn't seem to figure out what was wrong with them. And then just coming and sitting and learning from you like how the nervous system works, and how it's like all kind of interconnected. And it might be this but it might be that I don't think it's a coincidence that in the you know, two months, three months, we've been working together, like my calves feel the best I've ever felt my body feels the best that it's ever felt amazing, but I never would have connected the nervous system, and like how you approach the work, like I wouldn't have thought that that was chiropractic

Dr. Karen Quinn:

work. Yeah, and that is chiropractic. Like, that's the foundation of chiropractic is the nervous system. And, and a lot of people don't know that. And, you know, it's, I don't know, if it's just because I don't know, um, I try to educate people as much as I can in the in the moments that I have with people. But the nervous system is tough, because there's direct connections, you know, nerve to tissue. And then there's also indirect connections between, you know, the sympathetic nervous system, your fight or flight, or are you like, if you're dominant in fight or flight, you're going, it's going to affect your healing capacity is going to affect your resiliency, right? So that can be more of an indirect relationship. It can be, you know, balancing the upper neck and the head can, if it's off of alignment, can impact the lower back, right. So there can be a lot of obscure kind of connections and non kind of obvious connections. But then there's an I think, a lot of the time we look, you know, just as humans in our own bodies, we, what makes most sense is that direct connection, or just, you know, like you said, with calves or if you know, if your calf is the issue, then you know, it's easy to focus, you know, blinders on that calf, but nine times out of 10 You know, the calf is just the alarm bell of the body that's going off and it may not even be the calf right? And so we need to look beyond that above the chain below the chain and also to take care of those compensations right? Because then once you nothing works in isolation, so once you kind of unlock one area of the body, you know is going to affect everything else, for better or worse. So we need to just make sure that everything's balanced.

JP Gaston:

Curious if you were in sport, when you were younger, were you very involved in in athletics.

Dr. Karen Quinn:

I was always active I was never good

Seth Anderson:

together So your softball story you're telling me that one

Dr. Karen Quinn:

year rain? Yeah, I can show that. Um, yeah, I was I've always been active like moving and being you know, I was in basketball growing up I was terrible at basketball. I was I was team spirit on the bench. And and if I if we had injuries in the, you know, in the team and I got to play more I like gave it everything and I didn't do too bad. But then I'd be back on the bench when Sir sorry. But I like being part of the team. I ran a lot. So I did a lot of individual sport too. And that's probably what I've done more as an adult. But yeah, as an adult, I played like flying football. That was fun. broke my nose played softball broke my nose that was sneaking in there. Um, yeah, but uh, but yeah, I was, I've always been kind of involved in sport, just not high level.

JP Gaston:

I asked, because the I've been going to the chiropractor since I was 12. So

Seth Anderson:

to have like, when you finished your coaching job, when you were 12, you headed off to the chiropractor?

JP Gaston:

Like, I was, like, five years into my coaching career better start my wellness,

Seth Anderson:

you carry in your briefcase around? Yeah.

JP Gaston:

No, but I like I had scoliosis. And so I started going to a chiropractor, very young. And I went very often when I started to try and work that out as best I could. And I have found over the years and I have been far too many different chiropractors. But the ones who have been the best and connected most with me and gave me the most information about the nervous system and how the body works have been people who have been involved in sport. And some of them have been high level athletes. Some of them have just been very sporty and like to be a part of either a team or you know, doing something individual, like the ones that I have found have personally been a struggle for me to deal with are the ones who are like, Yeah, I used to be a bit of a science nerd. I never really played any sports. And then I get decided I wanted to get into, into into chiropractic care. So it's, it's interesting to me that, you know, you, maybe not high level athlete, but you were you were athletic and involved in sport.

Dr. Karen Quinn:

Yeah. And I think there's a couple of reasons maybe why that is, I don't know, like, I can only speak from my own perspective. But I think you need to love the body and anatomy and like the functioning like I think the subject matter, you need to love it, I think in any profession, for your own sanity, but also, I mean, chiropractic college was like, it was intense. And so I always questioned, you know, there was always people in my class that were just you're like, why are you here? You don't seem to really like this. But I think too, with athletes, I mean, many athletes do deal with injuries. And I think having having that kind of experience in your own body. I mean, I've, I've been seeing chiropractors for wellness, and for different acute issues. Since I since that moment, I just I mentioned in university, and will for the rest of my life, just as a wellness point of my team. But I think when people are more in tune to their bodies there, they want to take care of it more, you know, you realize how impactful what you you know what you feed it, you know, the both food wise and mentally, how you're moving in and how that affects your performance. And in the sport, you see that pretty quickly, right? You see that performance? Translate? In life, you don't necessarily always see that as obviously, but it it happens, right? So it affects your ability to be alert and focused and creative and like you know, all those things. So, I don't know, that's my hypothesis. So I was definitely a science nerd

JP Gaston:

too. I made this connection on a previous episode, but I look at it a lot like cleaning. Like you don't want to do it. But as soon as you start sometimes you're just like, I'm gonna clean the whole house. Yeah, I gotta fix everything. Now that I've done a little bit. I'm feeling really good. I'm gonna do the next thing. I feel like it's very similar with the body. It's really hard to get started sometimes once you get going, you start tackling everything.

Dr. Karen Quinn:

Yeah, and it takes time. I think it's I think that's the other piece. That proactive wellness care for people can be hard to a couple things. One, it takes time. So we're in a very quick gratification society with many things, you know, you want a coffee, you can get it from any corner you look at right? Immediately. You don't have to really wait for that. And so with healing and feeling good or feeling change and feeling outcomes, we want them quick. I do too. But I know it takes my body also time if I'm doing say you know, a training program for a triathlon, or even just for my own health. It takes about three months for me to see like, Okay, this is the output, you know, of my my investment in time and energy.

JP Gaston:

I'm now stuck on. You said that you weren't. You weren't much of an athlete and then you just said that you were doing a training program for a triathlon. That's like that. Those are opposite ends of the spectrum for me,

Dr. Karen Quinn:

yeah, well, that was like, as an adult, I still wasn't like a high performer. But I did it. Yeah.

Seth Anderson:

I'm just thinking of like the Venn diagram of like science nerd and athlete and where those intersect, and

Dr. Karen Quinn:

I love school, like, I loved academics. You know, I, after chiropractic college, I had been in school for 12, you know, well, 13 years of grade school, including kindergarten, plus eight years of post secondary, and so I was ready to be done reading and studying for a bit, but it took many years for me to not be a little sad that I wasn't cool. Um, but now the nice thing about my career is, you know, I need, you know, I need and pursue continuing ed, right. So there's the learning never ends, whether it's based on you know, trying to dig deeper into how I can help a certain patient or just learn more tools and techniques to be able to apply or business, you know, so the learning never ends. And I think no matter what career you're in, you could choose that if it's something that you like doing. And I think that's what's important in life in general, is if you like something, you need to find a way to incorporate it into your life so that you have joy. You know, the other point I remembered about wellness and proactive care that I think is tough is you can't measure what you prevented. So if someone eats well, for their lifetime, so 20 years they've been eating, well, they've been pretty on top of exercise doesn't have to be perfect, but for the most part, they're on top of their lifestyle, you can't, you can't prove that they've prevented getting diabetes, or that they've they prevented that hamstring injury, or the hip degenerative degeneration, you can't prove that. And so it's hard evidence wise, to validate it other than I feel good. I like it, you know, make seems to make sense, I seem to be good. So I think that makes it a tough, kind of I don't want to use word sell. But because it takes effort, I think it makes it tough for some people to really value it as much.

Seth Anderson:

I think that's a that's a great point. And I think it applies not just in this arena, but all over the place. I even think in the workplace, like how do you measure something that never happened? And I mean, that's, that's a conversation I know, JP, you and I've had many times in our previous world

Dr. Karen Quinn:

many times, and it doesn't make, you could do everything right in your lifestyle, and it doesn't make you you know, protected from injury, 100% or illness, it doesn't mean you're going to never have pain. I don't think that's the goal. But your resiliency is going to be 1010 100 fold 1000 folds different, you know, if two people slip on ice, and they both hurt their hip, well, one might not even get injured, because it might be, you know, resilient enough not to get injured in the first place. But if both get injured, one's gonna bounce back a whole lot faster if their lifestyle is has been on point for the months preceding that, right. Yeah, well,

JP Gaston:

I think about like my journey with chiropractic care. And to your point, I have no way to know, I had a measure, right, like I had, like, the curvature of my spine. And how I was feeling was very obvious. And I still don't know what I've prevented, or how much improvements it's actually made. Like, I could be like, way off the deep end. Now. If it wasn't for all the care that I've experienced. Yeah, you probably would be. You know, I mean, maybe I still. We all

Seth Anderson:

think about values. And I know JP, we've talked about this on the podcast a couple times, it was that Dr. Michael Gervais, he has a podcast finding mastery, and he's the sports psych for the Seattle Seahawks. And he had this concept of you earn your values, which I love. And I think that's been if I really think about, like, what do I value? And the top of that list is personal health. And like, Why do I value that? Well, because I know what it's like to not have it.

Dr. Karen Quinn:

Totally, I agree. And I've witnessed that in my own family. Right. And, and you see that, you know, you look at a health history form, and it's, you know, what's your family history? You know, how many people have had cancer? I mean, people have cardiovascular disease, how many people have had, you know, all these major, major diseases or illnesses? And I'm like, I don't want that. I want to do everything I can to not repeat history.

Seth Anderson:

How much does the mindset play into this whole wellness thing? I mean, to me, that's sort of the starting point, but just curious for your perspective.

Dr. Karen Quinn:

I think everything starts with making a decision and making a choice and the choice isn't one choice, right? It might be in like for me, I'm, I want to be a chiropractor, but there's there been constant choices since then. Even once I was a chiropractor of you know, just because it's not all easy, and it's not all fun, but most of it is right but I think yeah, with your own personal health. It starts with making a choice and being open to impossibilities, especially if someone is starting at a point where they're in pain or quite ill, when you're in that state, it's really hard to believe that you can feel any other way. And so to really trust the process and trust that this can be different, it all starts in the mind. It all starts with just that decision. But it's constantly after that reaffirming that, right,

JP Gaston:

curious if you have patients who don't like the sound that comes with chiropractic care,

Dr. Karen Quinn:

I don't do I don't actually do a lot of manual adjusting, but when I do, it's more in the, you know, in the upper back, and so some, yeah, if we do manual adjustments, there can be pops and cracks. And some people love it, though.

JP Gaston:

Some people I am a lover of Yeah.

Dr. Karen Quinn:

Yeah, some people don't. But again, it's educating people about like, what is actually happening, like, it's not a cracked bone or anything like that. It's just, it's just kind of gas exchanging in the joint. But then that's why there's other approaches to if there's, if there's people that come into my office, and most a lot of people that come to me come because they don't want manual adjustments. And so we just don't do that. We find other ways. So that you can be comfortable. But yeah, it's funny.

Seth Anderson:

I was gonna say, like, I remember the first time that you adjusted me and I was like, wait a minute, that little pet like, that's, that's, that's what we're doing. Yeah, like, but like, honestly, like, it's so precise. I guess that's the thing, right? Like, you're, you're like going like vertebrae by vertebrae? And like, you got your little pen thing? Is ticker. Totally different experience?

Dr. Karen Quinn:

Yeah. When, and I warn people that are used to manual or don't have, you know, have that expectation that you're gonna think I'm crazy, you're gonna think this is not gonna do enough? Because it's so gentle. And it's so you know, simple to them, you know, that you're gonna think I'm nuts, but just, let's see. And then yeah, people, you know, they can't, they can't kind of deny that they see changes. But I've had a lot of people lately come in. And they say, so I've been watching YouTube videos, and instagram videos, and I cringe and because a lot of them are, I don't know, I personally don't love those videos. And I am very clear that I'm not doing that. But they're actually attracted to that. Find it cool. Like, okay, I won't be doing that.

JP Gaston:

And I think a lot of them do the table trick, or they like drop the table at the same time as making the adjustments. So there's actually, no, I guess, that's Thompson

Dr. Karen Quinn:

techniques. Yeah, I do drop sometimes. But again, it's gentle on the patient. But if you're in the waiting room hearing that it sounds, it sounds aggressive. But the patient isn't feeling it as an aggressive, it's just the table.

Seth Anderson:

Just another I think interesting thing about you as if you don't have enough to do with being a chiropractor, you're also a yoga instructor. Is that something you're actively doing? What inspired you to kind of do it? Was it just your lifelong learning? Or like, I need to go do this thing? Or how do you end up going down there?

Dr. Karen Quinn:

I'm trying to think that I had contemplated yoga teacher training for many years, I loved yoga for my own personal kind of wellness tool for more so mentally, but physically, obviously, there were I was seeing lots of benefits. And I could see how I could integrate it really well. A lot of I give a lot of home care for people to be empowered to do you know, what they need to do at home to sustain what we're doing and you know, just support their bodies. And a lot of my home care was really similar to yoga. So I'm like, Okay, well, even my home care can be enhanced if I have this training. And so yeah, I went through that here in Calgary and loved it had a great group of people that I went through it with and, and then from that I never actually taught like an irregular studio class. I did workshops, I did subbing in studio, I actually for a year I worked as a yoga instructor for the National School of Sport in Calgary, and so I went and did like, once a week, their gym class was a yoga class. So I did that. That was really that was my first year after getting my yoga teacher training and it was really rewarding and, and challenging in its own way. But yeah, now I just do like private classes. Or if you know, if I was to host a workshop, I do retreats, I just started doing retreats with a colleague of mine and so of course incorporate yoga into that retreat. And yeah, so it's it trickles in and more so in my day to day, homecare recommendations for people, but it's not so much doing a yoga class with them. It's giving them a posture or, you know, a pose to do to counter what's happening with them.

Seth Anderson:

I've I've gotten away from the yoga last year in January, I did the 30 Day Yoga with what's her name? Andrea?

Dr. Karen Quinn:

Yo, Adrian. Yeah, I love her. She's awesome.

Seth Anderson:

Yeah, it was really good. I quite enjoyed that. I kind of I got to start mixing some more yoga and I think I've been focused more on the strengths I

Dr. Karen Quinn:

think I think a lot of it is being intuitive to what you need and are drawn to and trusting that too, because I go in and out. I mean, there's times where I don't do any yoga. And maybe I should, you know, it's not necessarily all on purpose, it's just maybe I get distracted or busy or whatever I do, I always find value in it, and I want to incorporate it in my regular routine. But I do also Seth go back into like, sometimes I'm craving more strength. And sometimes I'm just so burnt out or tired that the strength is too depleting. And I need, like, I need the gentle and the slowdown. And so I think, Oh, it's good, like, we need all of it, all of its beneficial. But I think also, the more we can be in tune to our own intuitive needs, we can kind of pursue what is going to support us best. And I think we're best in tune to our intuition when we are healthy, you know. So it's kind of becomes just a lifetime journey and figuring that out. I think

JP Gaston:

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Seth Anderson:

is we do have a question this week. Actually, I don't have a question for my mom, because she never got back to me. But I have a question from a listener, Margaret. And she's wondering for people like myself, who have a fear of going to a chiropractor? Do you have any advice, like I get worried about the sound of the cracking bones, and I'm worried that I could be paralyzed?

Dr. Karen Quinn:

Okay, that's a good question. And, and understandable, again, with what videos can kind of be out there and, and how chiropractic has been portrayed in media isn't hasn't always been favorable. But I would say, one, there's over 100 techniques that people can do, every chiropractor in the world learns manual, but not every chiropractor practices that there's so many other techniques. I mean, Seth, you're, you know, I can do manual, but I don't do much of it. And if someone came in, and I've had many people come in expressing concern and fear around it, I don't even when I make notes to make sure that you know, we're going to keep it very gentle, but I don't even I don't even start care with them until they're 100% comfortable. So I would say find a chiropractor that that first visit is like just an assessment, and you're just getting information, and there's no commitment to start care. Because if once you get, you know, the assessment and the information is reviewed with you, and if you're still not feeling comfortable, then it may not be the best place for you. And either maybe there's another chiropractor, or maybe there's another professional that would be better in a different, you know, in a different domain. And once that person has assessed you, they should be better equipped to know what that referral would be best. If there's someone that is, I mean, hypothetically, if someone came in and, you know, after going through everything, they still weren't comfortable with how I would be approaching their care or getting an adjustment, then I would refer them to, you know, someone that I felt was best, like I would never leave someone hanging. So I guess finding someone that does like a thorough first visit assessment. And don't feel pressured that you have to agree to care, it's your body, right? So and also looking for techniques, maybe that are non manual techniques to start. And then maybe maybe down the road, you never require that or want that and that's fine. And maybe down the road, you actually feel more comfortable. And you do pursue that. So I hope that answers your question,

JP Gaston:

what are some of the things that you might look for in your initial? I mean, you go to a chiropractor. So what are some of the things that you might look for in the initial assessment stage, because I think a lot of people sign up for the initial assessment. And it immediately turns into their first adjustment and ongoing care because they just they don't know what to ask or they don't know what to look for. I know it's gonna be a little bit personal for everyone, but what are what are some of the things you might look for as a practitioner

Dr. Karen Quinn:

or as a patient as a patient? Okay, well, one, I think communicating your boundaries is the most important thing. So if you're, if you're coming into or even just at booking just saying, if you're not wanting a treatment, and you're or an adjustment, and you're just wanting an assessment to see where things are at, I would express that. And I see that, for me, I don't even often adjust on that first visit. But that doesn't speak for everyone. So expressing your boundaries, I think upon booking or at that first visit, to say I don't I'm not looking to be adjusted to you. I just want to see what you see, is probably the most important. The other I think is I mean often on websites, you know, they'll say what their first visit process is, I don't know if my website now But upon booking it does on the booking page it does. I should probably add that. But uh, usually there's some expectation or you get a feel for a practitioner on their website, or even just calling just asking what's the first visit appointment entail, like what's included in that visit, if it's assessment, it should always be assessment first, like, I just have never practiced in any other way. I've always done a very thorough assessment to start and then go through kind of the information and then in what's going on and then consent, and then that would be when you would adjust. So it's hard for me to speak on other offices and how they might do things differently. But I know that that exists. So I think expressing your boundaries and then just reviewing it like asking what the first visit is. And if you if you need to be adjusted usually there's there should be kind of a visit of assessment and and reviewing the information.

Seth Anderson:

And one of the things just to plug my experience with with you gave me this handy dandy I can't believe I'm saying handy dandy little like infographic that like broke down every vertebrae, and like what some of the symptoms were for those things being out of a line. And like, I never would have thought any of that, like I just had no idea. Yeah, that like my upper back could be causing stuff all over my body. Like it was just, it was so interesting. Like if nothing else, even if I wouldn't have continued doing care with you. Like I found that documents so interesting just to for my own interest. Totally.

Dr. Karen Quinn:

It's it's basic anatomy to you, right? Like it's It's how our body is wired. And most people don't know that. And it's, it's for me in the chiropractic philosophy that I have always resonated with, that's where I mean, that's where chiropractic started was, you know, kind of connecting Okay, the spine and the spines relationship to those nerves and those nerves relationship to the body. And now, I mean, we have so much more information, even in the last five years in terms of how the brain is incorporating so I started incorporating various, you know, there's brain exercises that can enhance the body's reception to different things. It's fascinating. That's what's amazing about the body is what we what I learned in chiropractic school and in Kinesiology. So much has changed. I mean, there's obviously a lot that's the same anatomy is anatomy to a point. But I mean, there's so much that they're continuing to learn, I don't think we're ever going to completely understand the nuances of, of nature in the body, to a degree that really explains how everything works, because there's obviously the physical, there's the mental and there's the chemical and everything's working together. I remember

JP Gaston:

the first time it was explained to me that my neck was sore because of my hips. And I was like, You're crazy. And then, and then he actually walked through it. And actually, he he may have been and I haven't been to you. So I will caveat what I'm about to say, he may have been the best chiropractor, he used to be a professional surfer. And he got into chiropractic care. And he was just he was so good. And he explained, you know, your neck is a symptom of your shoulder, compensating for your back, which is compensating for your spine, which is you know, compensating for your hips that are out of line because of the scoliosis. And I was like when you put it all together, and we actually walked through it. I was like, Oh, well, this works. But at first description of what was the craziest person I've ever met, I'm never going back to a chiropractor again.

Dr. Karen Quinn:

It's hard to it's hard to wrap your brain around it. When it's the first time you've ever heard that, right, like, as chiropractors, I mean, I'm 16 years into practice now. And I am still learning things. And we'll you know, like I said, we'll continue to learn things. But there's connections that, you know, you see in practice that it's just the sheer volume of people that you see that you're like, huh, this is a pattern that is fascinating. And but we're exposed to that for decades and years and years of looking at it every single day. And you're a patient that's been there for you know, you're hearing this for the very first time. It's a lot to comprehend

JP Gaston:

first time and you you know, you didn't come up in that area. You are the accountant that you were talking about earlier. Yeah.

Dr. Karen Quinn:

That would be way over my head. Yeah. Yeah, no, I love hearing that people have great experiences. Like I actually, like it makes me so happy to hear of other practitioners that are holistically minded. It seems very obvious, but it's not everyone practices the same. And so you know, you hear people have a bad experience, quote, unquote. And again, like, often I think it's a matter of communication, but it doesn't discount the whole profession because there's so many personalities and there's and sometimes is that right? Sometimes it's just a personality clash. There's so many techniques, there's so many approaches to care, and that you can see that for every single profession, right? You can say that about dentist teachers barista. So

JP Gaston:

yeah, I know people who take their time to analyze and figure out if their hairstylist is the best First, that don't take that same sort of care with chiropractic care, because they just, they think, Oh, it's a chiropractor. I'm going to go and get the same. Same thing done no matter what. But you know, that hairstylist really got to make sure. Yeah,

Dr. Karen Quinn:

yeah, it's so that's such a great analogy. It's so true. And I think you need to feel, especially when someone's hands are on you, whether it's such therapist, chiropractor, it's, it's a personal experience, right? And you need to feel safe with that person. And not only as the personality that they are, and the energy they give off, but also just in how they're communicating and holding space for you. You know, if someone didn't feel comfortable with me, I probably would also feel the same about them. And I would find them a different practitioner, because it's not going to make my days enjoyable. And it's not going to they're probably not going to get the best out of me either. So yeah, it's super important to be your own advocate for your care in any domain.

JP Gaston:

And you mentioned holistic care there is like just to Margaret's question like that is so important to take that time to look at the website, or to find information on the on the person get get referrals, if I mean, that's giving every listener right now a referral, I think. So important because like i i spent time with my current chiropractor, because I did actually have a recent one, he wasn't great. I spent time to go through the website to understand and the entire website, everything they do, the newsletter they put out, it's all about holistic care. That's where the conversation started, was actually sitting down in that first conversation to talk about what I needed. And not just hey, you're here for a bad crack. Alright, lay down on the table.

Dr. Karen Quinn:

Totally,

Seth Anderson:

totally. Amazingly. It is. We're on the precipice of 2022. Aaron, I mean, it feels like yesterday, it was 29, like 2019 are all just kind of going about our business living our lives. I know. And here we are in 2022. Hopefully things you know, things have been slowly getting to whatever this new normal is. But just wondering, do you have any, any goals, ambitions? Anything you want to knock out in? 2022?

Dr. Karen Quinn:

Always, you're putting me on the spot?

Seth Anderson:

Totally. play this back for you in a year. Yeah.

Dr. Karen Quinn:

No, this is good. This is really good. So I look at when I set goals in different domains. So I have, you know, different physical goals. For me physically, I'd say, for my own health, consistency and adding in like, I've been working with a trainer, and I'll be moving into kind of my own home workouts which are, which are tough for me to work out at home. Like I like destinations. And so but I want to kind of challenge myself and discipline myself a bit with that. So incorporating just consistency and kind of a structure with that, which I don't think that will be too hard. Because I'm like I said, I'm pretty, like being active is a pretty big part of my life. workwise a few different things I've been moving towards. And I think the last two years have kind of introduced this more to me and emphasizes just, you know, how do we work smarter, not harder, and finding different efficiencies in my office protocols and so that I can maximize the the care people are getting, but also not maximize my output and my exhaustion. And so I've been playing with different things. And I think honing that in a little bit better. That's constant that's every year, I'll be I look at that. The big one that I haven't really spoke publicly about is on my Instagram page, which is how I met you, Seth, actually, I think, is awesome. For as much social media can be challenging it can be,

Seth Anderson:

it can be a great connector, and we talk a lot about the negative, but there's a lot of positives to Yeah,

Dr. Karen Quinn:

so on my Instagram page, I, I every third post I do is an anatomy post. And I started that years ago, and I wanted to just educate people on their bodies and anatomy and and try to introduce that holistic piece to it a little bit more of just how everything is connected. And I started drying them myself because I didn't understand copyright laws. And I'm like, what if I do all this content, and then I'm using someone's image, and I'm not supposed to be and I had to take this down. And so I just was like, well, I'll just do my own. And so I've been drawing these anatomy images, and you didn't think anything of it. But I've had practitioners reach out and want to purchase them for artwork for the walls or for their own social media. And so I've been procrastinating for a long time and creating an Etsy store so that people can download those images. So that's more of a fun creative outlet for me, and I just need to just need to do it. So that's my biggest one. Yeah. And but that's more practitioner. I mean, I guess if someone wants a picture of their brain on their wall, they could order it but probably for practitioners.

Seth Anderson:

You can make a book out of it.

Dr. Karen Quinn:

I thought of that too, like a flip book or something that has like the educational piece not just The stuffy like, you know, medical dictionary definition but you know, making the fun cool, interesting facts about the body and yeah, I thought about that too.

Seth Anderson:

Proactive Carrie, do you like a kid's book and get it? Get it in there.

Dr. Karen Quinn:

Oh, that's a good idea. See? It's great. Yeah.

Seth Anderson:

Welcome.

JP Gaston:

This is an exclusive

Dr. Karen Quinn:

dedicated. Dedicated The Biz Dojo,

Seth Anderson:

The Biz Dojo.

Dr. Karen Quinn:

Yeah. Other than that, I think just having grace. I mean, that also was kind of my theme for I usually don't so much do resolutions for a year. I mean, I definitely am goal setting. But I usually the last few years, I've tried to pick a word that I want to kind of resonate with. And a few years ago, it was boundaries, which became, you know, more than a year of like, working on that. And then last year, I think was more grace, like just having grace for myself in where I'm at, and where I'm at in any given moment, but also just in the big picture kind of thing. I haven't chosen my word for this coming year yet. But now I'm going to think more about it. I have to let us know.

Seth Anderson:

Maybe, yeah,

JP Gaston:

like that word of the year. Because, like, I've always thought resolutions are ridiculous, because why am I waiting until January 1 to start something that clearly no, I need to do now.

Dr. Karen Quinn:

Yeah. And most resolutions, we know fail within three weeks. Like you go to the gym, and it's packed for the first three weeks. And then January 22, is

JP Gaston:

if I ever opened the gym, I would only open it from January to March. Totally. And then it would just premium. Yeah, exactly.

Dr. Karen Quinn:

Yeah, exactly. The other thing I do, actually, I do this sometimes on New Year's Eve, but more so on my birthday is I write a letter to myself, and I write out you know, things that have happened things I'm proud of things I'm upset with or want to change, or whatever it is, things I want to manifest and and then i Obviously I know what it says but I put it away. And then on the next year, I read through the previous letters. And it's interesting, because then you start to see also patterns of where I'm where I'm not taking action sometimes, right? So I'll see like, oh, every year this one thing has come up every year and it hasn't changed. So then it makes me wonder like, Okay, do I just need to, you know, get off my butt and do this? Or is it actually something I really want? Because if it's something I really wanted, wouldn't I have taken an action by now? Like, is this my expectation or somebody else's? And so, I mean, anytime you track anything, you see patterns, right? And it gives you feedback. So I that's another little exercise I like doing

Seth Anderson:

but I tried this year, and it's first time I've ever done this as I wrote down 21. They're called goals, like some of them are like really specific, like, one of them on there was to do the 30 day yoga thing with a little checkmark beside it. But then there's one like in capital letters, I guess I had a word of the year, and I didn't really think of it that way. But it was grow. And I think I did that. I don't know JP, what do you think?

JP Gaston:

I think you shrunk. That's true.

Dr. Karen Quinn:

But I would agree i in the short time I've known you I mean, I can't remember I think I met you in the springtime or Summer. Summer somewhere in there. Yeah, I don't know. And I didn't know you before. So maybe we're always like this. But I've been really impressed with just I mean, listening to this podcast in general, just you guys are great interviewers and have really great questions. And I'm a podcast junkie. So I like to think that I have a good handle on what a good podcast is. yours, yours is great, but you like I think about your kids, and how much like they see everything you do. And you know, they see you going to the chiropractor, they see you working out, they see you making setting goals, they see you pushing yourself and I think that is amazing, because that is going to influence them in in such big ways. And so I just need to say that. And I would say that probably it's the same for you as well. Right? Because, like for both of you, I think that's amazing, because you're setting the tone for them and how they're going to approach life.

Seth Anderson:

That's the That's it. That's the core of the whole thing right there. I think once I realize that, I don't think I was a bad dad before but like to be a great dad, it really you have to take care of yourself and you have to demonstrate and show them what good looks like they're gonna have their own journey, their own challenges, you can't live their life for them. But the more good habits and in terms of wellness, the more positivity the more you can kind of help set them up to be whoever they're going to be. Not through protecting them from everything but giving them coping mechanisms and creating an environment where they're willing to be open and come to you like that's that's been the core of why I do what I do. So

Dr. Karen Quinn:

yeah, when being intentional, right, you're very intentional with Taking action. I mean, you don't have to host a podcast with hosting a podcast isn't a lot of work and takes a lot of time. Right? But you You do it because it's something that's going to grow you. So I think that's amazing.

Seth Anderson:

Thank you for that. That was You're welcome. Very touching. I appreciate that. I guess on the, on the way out of here, Karen, how can? How can people get in touch with you and learn more about your practice and what you do?

Dr. Karen Quinn:

Yeah, the best way is either my website which is Dr. Karen quinn.com, or Instagram is, I'm on Facebook too, but not as actively so I'd say Instagram is more more clear on who I am and kind of what I offer and what I'm about. And it's Dr. Karen Quinn amazing and it's Dr. For Dr. We are yeah Dr. Karen Quinn qu i and

Seth Anderson:

and if you do book an appointment, you get to go see one of the best views in the city.

Dr. Karen Quinn:

So that's right night or day later.

Seth Anderson:

I gotta come at like, in the evening or something. Yeah,

JP Gaston:

I was gonna say in winter you can do it

Dr. Karen Quinn:

it's pretty late at night. Better

Seth Anderson:

than with like the snow a little snowing kind of all that must be that must be

Dr. Karen Quinn:

pretty. It's it's my kind of my weather vane to because there's times where snow storms rolling in. And you know, when you eat well, you know, I'm very close to downtown. And when you can't see downtown, you know, it's bad. Yeah, you're like, Oh, it is. It is not nice outside. We haven't had that quite yet.

JP Gaston:

But like Twilight moment is perfect. You get downtown, you get like a little bit of the rolly Hill mountain background, but just like a silhouette of it. You don't know. It's so nice over there.

Dr. Karen Quinn:

Yeah, the only better view would be the mountain like a mountain view for sure. I'm stuck in the city. city. The city downtown lights is

Seth Anderson:

nice. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for your time and energy this morning, Karen. Really appreciate it. And I'm coming. Yeah, I'm coming in for an appointment tomorrow. So I will. I will see Britain early.

Dr. Karen Quinn:

Awesome. Great meeting you too JP.

JP Gaston:

Yeah, great to meet you. Thanks for coming in.

Dr. Karen Quinn:

Thank you. Bye.

JP Gaston:

Thanks for listening to today's episode. Don't forget to hit subscribe and leave a review. Of course, if you're interested in coaching, send us an email to coaching at the biz dojo.com